Tag: debate

So Much for My Lunch Hour

KevinLeave a comment

 or Preaching to the Heathen

I’ve responded again to Tim Lambert, but I thought I’d post it here too. If I’m going to do that much work, I might as well take advantage of it. Go read the whole thread if you want the background on it. Here’s my latest:

Tim, IT DOESN’T WORK!

Restrictions on weapons, except in rare cases, ONLY make it more difficult to defend oneself. They have essentially no effect on the access to weapons by violent criminals. Had Lindsay been assaulted away from home he would not have had access to the sword. Then what? There’s a complete ban on handguns in England, yet one of his assailants had one.

What you characterize as “restrictions on weapons” in England is the complete denial of the ability of anyone to legally possess one, at least outside their own home. Well, that’s one definition of “restriction” I guess. When it comes to firearms the laws “restrict” English subjects from using a firearm in self-defense in their own homes by requiring them to store their firearm (assuming they have jumped through all the hoops required to acquire one, and fully cognizant of the fact that the law considers self-defense an unacceptable reason for having one) unloaded, in a locked container, away from the ammunition which is required to be in a separate locked container.

I have described above the cycle of ever-more draconian “restrictions on weapons” as a result of the cognitive dissonace produced from a philosophy that holds that all weapons are offensive and the cause of violence. As an adjunct to that philosophy, the use of weapons is held to be evil, with the sole exception of the use of weapons by an agent of government. The philosophy has further morphed, becoming one in which there is almost no recognition of the concept of a legitimate use of force, at least without a UN Security Council joint resolution. 😉

In the context of resistance to crime, all a violent criminal need do in order to nearly guarantee himself success is to select a victim that is his physical inferior, or to overwhelm his victim with numbers. If he wants to make it even easier all he needs to do is have a weapon, since his victim will almost certainly not have one and weapons are readily available in spite of the laws against them. (I’m sure Lindsay’s attackers never expected him to resist. He was outnumbered and outmatched. I think he was successful as much out of shock as anything.) If the violent criminal actually likes to use force against his victims, he need not fear any effective resistance. As a result of this physical reality, violent crime has been on the increase in England and Wales since the 1950’s.

You have (understandably, given the origination of this thread) focused on the assertion that “self-defense is illegal.” I’ll make my position explicit: There is a legal recognition that the British subject has a right to use legitimate force in stopping a crime against himself. It even acknowledges a right to use lethal force against a rapist. However, the laws of the last fifty years, developed under the philosophy I described above and that you by all indications share, have resulted in a situation in which the actual use of force in resisting crime is legally risky. The carry of weapons outside the home is prohibited, making the defensive use of them prohibited. The use of weapons inside the home might as well be. The bar of “reasonableness” has been raised again and again. The law makes comforting noises about the jury taking into account the “instinctive” reaction of the attacked, but the jury – distanced from the attack in time, location, and emotion – is tasked with determining how “reasonable” that “instinctive” reaction is. Lindsay stabbed his attacker four times – in the back, certainly – and is sentenced to eight years. Here in the States someone gets indicted and tried for shooting a burglar six times, four in the back, and when asked why responds “that’s all the bullets that were in the gun.” The jury finds this “reasonable” and acquits. (That’s an apocryphal example, but I can find a comparable concrete one without too much trouble.)

My apologies for this thread drifting so far away from what you consider the original point, but in my opinion what we’re discussing here is the absolute right of the individual to defend himself, his family and his property. That right is given mere lip service, but has no legal force in England any longer. The use of force, even the threat of force, by those who are not government agents is considered illegitimate regardless of the actor. The law-abiding citizen is the victim of that flawed philosophy and the cognitive dissonance that has set up a negative feedback loop resulting in their total disarmament. He (or she) is relegated to being the unresisting victim of violent crime by a system that denies, whether overtly or covertly, a right to the legitimate use of force.

You (inclusive) have avoided a question that I have posed more than once. The law recognizes the right of a woman to use lethal force against a rapist, but denies her any means by which to exercise it. How do you justify this dichotomy? Your last, lame response was “Restrictions on weapons might make self defence more difficult in some cases.” Well, it certainly does in this one, doesn’t it? The philosophy you defend is perhaps better described by saying that it is more moral for society to allow women to be raped than it is to enable them to stand with a smoking gun over the body of the rapist. That’s extreme, but nonetheless accurate.

My argument is that a philosophy that justifies the restriction of all weapons from the general public is WRONG, and that philosophy is spreading. The news report that originated this thread is just another example of the spread of that philosophy, and we American bloggers who flew off the handle recognized it as such. You share the cognitive dissonance that does not permit you to accept that the philosophy has failed, and as a result you fail to recognize the error of that philosophy.

We’ll see, I suppose, if that last assertion is validated.

No Time to Post Here, But…

KevinLeave a comment

Instead I engaged in a short exchange with a commenter to a thread over at Dean Esmay’s:

Stu:

If you’re a young, urban, black American male you have a very high chance of being murdered. If you’re a young, urban, hispanic American male, your chances are lower, but still quite high.

If you do not fit either of those demographics, your chances of being murdered are about the same as the average Canadian’s. Perhaps lower, because young, urban black males in America die of homicide at six times the rate of the rest of our population.

In comparing the US and England, the homicide rate ratio between the two countries has always been in excess of 5:1 – even when neither nation had any gun control whatsoever. I believe the ratio is currently just under 4:1, but I cannot be sure of that at the moment.

And finally, “‘The reality is that banning guns does not keep guns out of the hands of criminals;’ The logic of that statement completely eludes me. The primary source of illegal guns is theft from legal gun owners. So eliminate ALL of the guns, and criminals have a much more difficult time accessing them.”

England has tried that. It made possession of all handguns illegal in 1996. All 156,000 legally-owned handguns (Actually, I think it was 163,000) were turned in, along with 750,000 rounds of legally possessed ammunition. Handgun crime has gone UP every year since. England recently had a “firearm amnesty” where people could turn in illegal weapons, no questions asked. The collected almost 200,000 firearms and over a million rounds of ammo – but in the violence-ridden areas of London and Manchester there was almost no response.

Banning guns makes it more difficult for criminals to acquire them, but it does not make it effectively difficult, as England demonstrates.

It is not physically possible to “ELIMINATE ALL OF THE GUNS” – and since violent criminals represent somewhere around 1% of a population, it doesn’t require very many guns to service that population. And they will be served – the first rule of economics is that demand will be met with supply.

Banning guns ignores these simple and obvious facts. And all it does is disarm the people you DON’T need to worry about. The inability to see this logic is what eludes me.

Posted by Kevin Baker on March 25, 2004 at 11:39 AM

Kevin: “If you’re a young, urban, black American male you have a very high chance of being murdered. If you’re a young, urban, hispanic American male, your chances are lower, but still quite high.”

Chopping up demographics in this way is what I meant when I said “tortured statistics”. Unless you’re saying that this group doesn’t count, or something.

Kevin: “In comparing the US and England, the homicide rate ratio between the two countries has always been in excess of 5:1 – even when neither nation had any gun control whatsoever. I believe the ratio is currently just under 4:1, but I cannot be sure of that at the moment.”

Britain has had what would be considered to be tight gun control (in comparison to the US) since 1920. And the overall homicide rate ratio is 10:1

Kevin: “England has tried that. It made possession of all handguns illegal in 1996. All 156,000 legally-owned handguns were turned in, along with 750,000 rounds of legally possessed ammunition. Handgun crime has gone UP every year since.”

And the homicide rate?

Posted by Stu on March 25, 2004 at 12:09 PM

Stu:

That’s not “chopping up demographics” or “tortured statistics” – it’s explaining that homicide is not homogenous throughout a society. Handgun ownership, for instance, is largely concentrated in the white male population, but homicide is heavily concentrated in the young, black, urban male population. You are attempting to make the case that “more guns = more homicide” yet that conclusion cannot be logically drawn given the facts. In the United States approximately 1 million handguns and two million long guns are added to the private market each year, yet we’ve had ten or more years of declining homicide rates.

Homicide in England has trended – slightly – UP since the handgun ban. The proportion of homicides committed with handguns has gone UP since the ban.

This suggests that guns are not the cause of homicide, yet gun bans treat them as though they are.

“Britain has had what would be considered to be tight gun control (in comparison to the US) since 1920. And the overall homicide rate ratio is 10:1” That is incorrect. The U.S. homicide rate in 2000 was 5.64/100,000. England & Wales had a rate of 1.61/100,000, for a ratio of 3.5:1. The firearm homicide ratio is 10:1. What you consider to be “tight” gun control may differ somewhat from mine.

Dean’s comment section is not an appropriate place to hold this discussion IMHO. I have a blog that I set up specifically for discussions of this type. Would you be interested in debating this topic with me there?

Posted by Kevin Baker on March 25, 2004 at 1:39 PM

“Dean’s comment section is not an appropriate place to hold this discussion IMHO.”

I disagree. This is what the comments section is for.

Why did you just post the homicide rate for England and Wales, and not include those of Scotland and NI? Even so, what would attribute the higher homicide rate in America to?

Posted by Stu on March 25, 2004 at 1:57 PM

Stu:

It’s inappropriate because it’s his bandwidth, and it’s an awkward place to make extended points – which a discussion of this type requires.

I excluded Scotland and Northern Ireland because they are not normally included in the general comparison between the U.S. and what most people here think of when you say “Britain.” If you average England & Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, the rate is about 2.25/100,000. Both Scotland and Northern Ireland have higher homicide rates than England & Wales. That would bring the ratio down to about 2.5:1.

Homicide is a largely cultural thing, but it is exacerbated by the illicit drug trade and consumption of mind-altering substances, both of which are concentrated in specific demographics in both the U.S, the UK, and Canada. The culture of the U.S. is still relatively young compared to Europe, and it is historically violent. Europeans seemed to prefer engaging in killing wholesale (with war after war after war) we tend to do it retail. Canada seems to be more European in nature.

Posted by Kevin Baker on March 25, 2004 at 2:15 PM

I guess that means he won’t debate me over at The Fabulous Baker Boys. Too bad. That would have been fun.

KevinLeave a comment

The Debate Continues

Jack has posted his riposte. I seem to have offended him. George Bernard Shaw wrote once that “England and America are two countries divided by a common language.” I’ll chalk it up to that, I guess. No offense was intended, but now I guess I’m going to have to strain to make myself perfectly clear.

My last response to him ran six printed pages.

Hoo-boy.

KevinLeave a comment

We ARE Going to Have a Debate!

Jack has responded to my opening post in our debate on gun control over at The Commentary. It’s going to take me a while to generate my response, but all I’ve got to say is, This is going to be FUN!

Go on over and give it a read.

Are We Going to Debate, or Aren’t We?

KevinLeave a comment

I started this blog because of a fairly heated exchange between a blogger I read regularly – Rob over at Gutrumbles and someone he reads, The Road Not Taken, over guns and the right to bear arms. Jack, being an Irishman living in England, has a very different take on it than Rob, (and for that matter, me) but Rob’s debating skills on this topic are, shall we say, vitriolic.

So I invited Jack to debate the topic, and he suggested I sign up at Blogger and we’d do it on-line. That was the last prompt I needed, so I set up The Smallest Minority. However, Jack had a little different idea, and he set up The Commentary and invited me to be a contributor there instead. OK, I’ve done that, and I’ll keep this blog too. Anyway, I opened the debate by responding to the post that set Rob off. I don’t know if The Commentary is going to go anywhere, and I’m not the administrator of that blog, and I put some time into the post, so I thought I’d repost it here as well. As of yet Jack has not responded. From here on down is my response to Jack’s opening salvo:

The opening thread in question is here (so long as Blogspot’s links are working) or you can just go to The Road Not Taken and scroll down to the heading The Right to Bear Arms.

I won’t quote that section whole because it digresses from the right to arms, discussing whether or not Dubya is a doofus and Rob’s bonnet, but I will take several of the statements and discuss them. Jack can then respond, refute, or clarify his positions and ask me whatever he wants.

Jack opens the debate with this statement:

“In the United States, a big deal is made of the right of US citizens to own and bear arms. It’s laid down in the Second Amendment to their constitution, right under freedom of speech and religion.”

Yes, it is a big deal – at least to some of us. That much is obvious from the amount of media coverage it gets and the number of people blogging about it over here.

“Or is it? The Second Amendment states (and I quote): ‘A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.’ ”

That is correct, weirdly placed commas and all.

“Now, I do not believe that this gives US citizens a blanket right to own and carry weapons. Specific reference is made to a “well regulated Militia” and, to me, that does not imply that anyone who feels like owning an AK-47 should be allowed to do so. However, I do believe that it means that if a group of people form a militia, if they behave responsibly, if they liaise with the proper authorities and, as long as there are no fears that the militia will be used for any other purpose than to defend the freedom of the State, then those people should be allowed to keep and bear Arms.

“On the other hand, if some kid walks into a gun store off the street with a handful of crumpled bills, I don’t think he should be allowed to buy a gun.

“That’s my first point – that the Second Amendment does not give any fool off the street the right to keep and bear arms.”

First point taken. And that is the position that people espousing gun control have been using for the last thirty to fifty years. But first let me correct a misassumption. Neither the Second Amendment nor any of the other members of the Bill of Rights “gives” anybody anything. Read carefully the First Amendment:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

The Fourth Amendment:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

Note that the First Amendment doesn’t say: “Congress shall make no law…abridging the freedom of speech hereby established…”, nor does the Bill of Rights say “This Constitution hereby grants the following rights…” This point is made explicitly by the Ninth Amendment:

“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

The enumeration of certain rights, not the granting of them.

This was universally understood at the time of ratification. In fact, ratification was held up until the Bill of Rights was agreed upon and added to the Constitution as a hedge against future infringement of our pre-existing rights. This was stated plainly:

“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals…. It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.“ –Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7, 1789. (My emphasis.)

So the right in question in the Second Amendment is “the right to keep and bear arms” – a right fully recognized prior to the Bill of Rights, and designated as inalienable by the Second Amendment. So why the preamble, and is it irrelevant? As many argue, does the naming of the militia make the right to keep and bear arms a right of “the people at large”? If so, as many have said it was the best kept secret of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, as no known writings by any of the Founders even suggests this possibility, while numerous citations exist to support the individual rights interpretation. What the gun control people avoid is what the Second Amendment was actually there for: as a final protection for “the People” against government.

It’s not about hunting, or target shooting, or even self-defense against common criminals – it’s there to ensure that the People have the means to oppose tyranny. Hunting, target shooting, and self-defense are givens if the people retain the right to arms against government. Samuel Adams said it best:

“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; or to raise standing armies, unless necessary for the defense of the United States, or of some one or more of them; or to prevent the people from petitioning, in a peaceable and orderly manner, the federal legislature, for a redress of grievances; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions.” (My emphasis)

That pretty much covers it.

Now to Jack’s second point:

“I drive a car. In order to drive that car, I had to pass a theory test, in which you are quizzed about the rules of the road, and a practical test, in which you demonstrate that you can implement the theory you have learnt and that you can drive safely and competently. If I drive dangerously, if I speed, if I drive while drunk, I’m liable to have my licence taken away from me.

“I think it should be the same with guns. Unlike most Europeans, I’ve used a gun. They strike me as incredibly dangerous things. Their sole purpose is to injure or cause death. I’m a kind of jocular guy and I often joke and mess around with stuff, but when I’m around weapons, I stop messing around, because it’s just too dangerous. I pride myself on having passed my weapons handling test first time, and I really, really don’t like being around people who aren’t competent or careful with weapons.

“Therefore, I can’t even comprehend why you would want to give a gun to anyone without ensuring that they are competent to handle and use it and without registering the fact that they keep it. As I understand it, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, there are places in the United States where you can walk into a gun shop, show your driving licence to prove your age and walk out with a gun and ammunition. No competence test, no registration, no enquiry as to why you want to own something whose primary purpose is killing people.

“To me, that is just plain dumb.”

These too are arguments – good arguments – used by gun control promoters. Let’s discuss them in reverse order. I as an individual can walk into a gun shop, pick out a gun, show my driver’s license or other acceptable form of photo ID, fill out a form, undergo a background check, and if I pass it lay down my money and walk out the door with a firearm I have no idea how to operate. This is a given. As to whether or not a registration has occurred, there are differing opinions. I did fill out a government form, and I did undergo a background check performed by a government entity. As to whether that information ended up on a list somewhere, we’ll have to pass on that question for the time being. However, if you accept that the Second Amendment protects a RIGHT to arms, then doing what I just described was me exercising a constitutionally protected individual RIGHT. Driving a car (an admittedly lethal instrument) isn’t a right.

I’m not comfortable around people who are incompetent with weapons either, but I’ve yet to see a way to prevent those yahoos from having arms without also risking my own disarmament. However, as with other protected individual rights, we’re allowed to strip people of them if they prove themselves unworthy. If Bob Mouthbreather does something felonious, his right to arms (along with his right to liberty and possibly even his right to life) can be stripped from him – but only AFTER the fact, and only after due process of law. His right to arms cannot be denied to him for something he might do, only something he’s actually done and been convicted of in a court of law. (Now, however, there is an exception for people under restraining orders and for misdemeanor domestic violence. There’s that slippery slope again.) If people had to prove competency and get a (government issued) license, then the government could make getting that license more and more difficult until it didn’t give out any licences at all. And if all guns were registered and all gun owners licensed, then the government could come and collect them all. Or at least collect them from the people honest enough to register.

England’s done that already with fully automatic wepons, with semi-automatic rifles and shotguns, and with all handguns. In the name of public safety. And it hasn’t made England any safer by any measure. Like the old saw goes, only the criminals (and the government) have guns there now. Which brings us to Jack’s third point:

“A lot of people make the argument that people should have guns for self-defence, because criminals have them. In American, the Second Amendment doesn’t mention self-defence. It only mentions a militia, so, in my opinion, you can’t say that the Second Amendment gives citizens the right to carry weapons in order to defend themselves against criminals.

“So, remove the Second Amendment from the argument and it comes down to a straight question – if criminals use guns to commit crime, should law-abiding citizens be allowed to carry guns to defend themselves?

“I don’t think so. I think that if criminals have guns, you need to tackle that problem head-on, not exacerbate it by allowing everyone to carry guns to defend themselves.”

Again, the Bill of Rights doesn’t “give” citizens anything – it protects our rights against government infringement. The question of carrying weapons in order to defend oneself is an interesting one, as the earliest court cases involving the right to arms discussed this very topic. The conclusion of the majority of those cases was that laws prohibiting concealed carry were constitutionally OK, but laws prohibiting OPEN carry were not. Self defense was one of those non-enumerated rights, and the Second Amendment protected the means of self-defense. On this question Jack and I have a major disagreement. Jack continues his point, saying:

“Here in the UK, there’s been some debate and tabloid headlines about the police shooting and killing people who’ve turned out to have been brandishing replica guns. People say that the police should be more careful, et cetera, et cetera. I say fuck ’em. If you’re stupid enough to go waving something that looks exactly like a gun at the police and you don’t put it down when you’re told to, then you deserve to be removed from the gene pool.”

What Jack has done here is separate out the police – people who should be allowed to remove other people from the gene pool – from the general public, who should not. I have a real problem with that. The police cannot be everywhere all the time. If they are, you are living in a de facto police state – something no one wants. If someone attempts to rob, rape, or assault me, I cannot depend on the police to be there to protect me, so I have two options: submit, or resist. England has apparently chosen to advise its subjects to submit. It has passed law after law making resistance legally dangerous. It has, in fact, made the job of the lawbreaker substantially less risky since the passage of the Prevention of Crime Act of 1953 made it illegal to carry any kind of weapon with which to defend yourself, and it’s only gotten worse since. This law did what Jack wanted – it disarmed the average citizen, but left the criminals armed.

So a question, Jack: Why should the police be the sole arbiters of whom is a suitable candidate to remove from the gene pool?

Jack concludes his piece thus:

I(n) conclusion, I’d just like to say that I’m not against gun ownership in principle. I thought it was really, really bad that the backlash after the Dunblane massacre led to a ban on sporting target pistols. British Olympic shooting competitors now have to go abroad to practise because their weapons are illegal in this country. That is just dumb.”

I thought it was really, really bad too, but I was not at all surprised. It was licensing and registration that made it possible. It was laws preventing the use of firearms for self-defense, and ever more stringent licensing and storage and documentation and recreational use requirements that reduced the number of law abiding gun owners in England and Wales to the point that they had no effective voice in Parliament that allowed the ban to be passed. England provides the template for “proper gun control legislation” that the supporters of such want to implement here. The Second Amendment prevent this.

Those old rich white guys knew what they were doing, didn’t they?