Month: April 2004

(We now return to our original programming)

Tim Lambert and I are attempting to discuss self-defense and weapon regulation. In an odd mix of blog comments and posts that is probably hard for anybody but us (and maybe even us) to follow, this is the latest entry in that exchange. It started with this post, continued in the comment section, then that spawned this later post by Tim. I could not reply in the comment section of that post, so my response is below, here. Tim’s response to that is in the comments to that prior post. Whew! And now I’m responding here.

A bit more background: The problem here, as I see it, is that Tim and I have entirely different perspectives based on entirely different philosophies. The philosophy that I believe Tim adheres to has led to the disarmament of UK citizens under the mistaken belief that it would make them safer. I believe, as I stated earlier, that Tim and other proponents of that philosophy suffer from cognitive dissonance – an inability to recognize the error of the philosophy, as most accurately described by Steven Den Beste:

When someone tries to use a strategy which is dictated by their ideology, and that strategy doesn’t seem to work, then they are caught in something of a cognitive bind. If they acknowledge the failure of the strategy, then they would be forced to question their ideology. If questioning the ideology is unthinkable, then the only possible conclusion is that the strategy failed because it wasn’t executed sufficiently well. They respond by turning up the power, rather than by considering alternatives. (This is sometimes referred to as “escalation of failure”.)

Because of Tim’s cognitive dissonance he is forced to dismiss or ignore anything that doesn’t fit the philosophy. Thus, when I ask the question,

And how is a woman to exercise her presumed inherent right to lethal force against a rapist if she’s denied any means with which to do so?

three times, he finally replies with:

Restrictions on weapons might make self defence more difficult in some cases, but they can also make it easier in others.

Isn’t that comforting?

The first question Tim asked me in his latest post was:

(Y)ou asserted that the statement “self defense in the UK is illegal” is “practically true”. If you acknowledge that you can defend yourself without a weapon, then surely you must concede that your statement is false?

Let’s see what I’ve said about that question so far, in chronological order:

The law there seems to be one based on “proportional response” – e.g., stabbing someone who isn’t armed with a weapon is “excessive force.” So is bashing them over the head with a brick. There are many of these cases, and they’ve lead us to the conclusion that private citizens in Britain had best not resist attack, or face prosecution for usurping the authority of the State in its monopoly on the legitimate use of force.
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The appearance is that, as I said, the government guards jealously the legitimate use of force. Proles should not overstep their restrictions.
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Do you find the law prohibiting honest citizens from carrying any weapon suitable for self-defense, while the law ostensibly allows you a right to defend yourself somewhat schizophrenic?

The jury is supposed to take your “instinctive” response to being attacked into account, but if you use a weapon in your defense you’re immediately assumed to have had it for offensive purposes. Am I misunderstanding the (il)logic here?
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Tim, the law prevents anyone from carrying anything for self-defense. A knife, pepper spray, a club, a taser, anything.

As the law has (apparently) been interpreted (and I believe it was intended) the presumption on the part of the Government is that if you carry a weapon, any weapon, you are guilty of the intent to do criminal bodily harm. Yet the law gives lip service to the concept of the right to self-defense.
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Is there or is there not a right to self-defense? English law says there is, yet its laws concerning weapons make self-defense, for all intents and purposes, a lost cause. The facts are that possessing, much less using anything that the State considers a weapon makes you a criminal in its eyes. It does not seem to legally recognize any legitimate use of force by any non-government actor.
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There are no “offensive” weapons. They’re just weapons. Or tools. (A hammer makes quite an effective weapon. So, apparently, does a walking stick .) A knife can be a tool or a weapon as well. Pepper spray or mace can be used to disable a victim as well as an attacker . Same for a taser, or an axe handle. So too for firearms.

It’s not the weapon that carries the intent – it’s the user. Yet the UK government has seen fit to tell the entire population “You’re not trustworthy. You cannot be trusted with any weapon, because of the chance you might use it to inflict bodily harm upon another.”

At the same time, it tells them that they have a right to inflict bodily harm upon another in defense of themselves – all the way up to homicide in the case of rape – but that the infliction of harm must be restricted to a reasonable level.

Who gets to decide what was reasonable? A JURY. Which means, if you use force effectively in your own defense, especially if you used any weapon in that effective defense, you stand a very good chance of being charged with excessive use of force, and placed on trial. After all, seems to go the reasoning, if you were able to effectively defend yourself, if your attacker is wounded and you are not, or if your injuries are less serious than his, you weren’t in real danger and/or you de facto used excessive force.

That high risk of prosecution effectively chills the right to self defense. Who wants to risk court? Just the costs, not to mention the possibility of conviction? The inability to have or use a weapon in your defense also chills the right. If you are overmatched, what use is resistance?
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I’ve said that, for those so willing (a firearm is) the BEST TOOL FOR THE JOB (of self-defense). But as Mr. Lindsay demonstrates, it’s hardly the “only way.” Your conclusion that my “argument is logically flawed” is based on your fallacious understanding of my argument.

That’s seven times I’ve tried to make my position perfectly clear. Here’s what Tim has said in response:

I think your arguments would be more persuasive if you could actually come up with a case that supports the position that self defence is not allowed.
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Kevin, you seem to be equating self defence with guns. This is doubly wrong. First, guns are far more frequently used for offensive purposes than for defensive ones. And second, guns are not the only means for self defence.
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To explicitly answer your question: No, I do not find the law to be schizophrenic. Restrictions on offensive weapons do not make it impossible to defend yourself.
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Restrictions on weapons might make self defence more difficult in some cases, but they can also make it easier in others (because the attacker does not have a weapon). The net effect could be to make it easier or harder on average. It certainly isn’t to make it impossible.
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Even if there are some rare situations where a gun is the only possible means for defence, it does not make the statement that “self defense in the UK is illegal”, since that is a general statement describing all situations. (Emphasis mine.)
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Despite learning that Lindsay had chased the robber out of his home and stabbed him in the back four times, in the comments and on his blog Baker continued to insist that self defence was illegal in practice in the UK. His argument was that England’s “laws concerning weapons make self-defense, for all intents and purposes, a lost cause”. His argument is badly wrong for two reasons.

1. Using a weapon is not the only way to defend yourself.
2. If the law disarms attackers, then it can make self defence possible where it would have been impossible if the attacker was armed.

Baker’s response on the first point is to focus on cases where a weapon might actually be the only way to defend yourself…

And finally,

(Y)ou asserted that the statement “self defense in the UK is illegal” is “practically true”. If you acknowledge that you can defend yourself without a weapon, then surely you must concede that your statement is false?

We’re using the same words, but apparently speaking different languages.

So here you go, Tim: English law says, as I quoted:

Section 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 provides that a person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, and the question of reasonableness is subject to the amplifications contained in such cases as R v McInnes and R v. Palmer. It has been held that “if a jury thought that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had done only what he honestly and instinctively thought was necessary, that would be most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken.”

and

One of the most important limitations on the use of weapons is of course that they cannot be carried or used to injure other people.

so weaponless self-defense is not statutorily illegal. Self-defense involving any weapon is legally risky. In both cases excessive force is to be judged by a jury. I think I said that several times. I think I was pretty clear about it, but if not, there it is in black and white.

Tim’s second objection is:

You claimed that what I was implying was: “Honest citizens should never use a weapon in self defense, and the government is honestly doing everything it can to disarm everybody so that you can successfully defend yourself in your unarmed state.” I never said anything like “Honest citizens should never use a weapon in self defense”. Kindly refrain from stuffing words into my mouth. I do not appreciate it.

What I said, verbatim, in response to your assertion of “If the law disarms attackers, then it can make self defence possible where it would have been impossible if the attacker was armed.” was:

Nice of you to admit that last point. Big “if” there at the start, though. Because what you are saying here by implication is “Honest citizens should never use a weapon in self defense, and the government is honestly doing everything it can to disarm everybody so that you can successfully defend yourself in your unarmed state.”

Tim, that’s how it translates to me. If that’s incorrect, please explain, in detail, exactly what you did mean.

Tim continues:

You continue to insist that “laws against weapons have essentially no effect on the access to weapons by criminals”, claiming that the English experience somehow illustrated this. You then write extensively about the violent crime rate England. But this is not even relevant to your claim, since it includes violence done without weapons.

Not relevant? Why? As I pointed out – REPEATEDLY – by disarming the law abiding it leaves them essentially defenseless against violent criminals, armed or not. All the criminal need be is physically superior to his victim, or (should he desire) the criminal can be armed, knowing almost as a certainty that his victim won’t be. If criminals need not fear effective resistance then they will be emboldened. I pointed to England’s experience with violent crime over the course of the 20th Century, noting that the real upswing in violent crime began just shortly after passage of the law that made illlegal carry of any weapon for defense on the grounds that there are no “defensive” weapons for the general public, only “offensive” weapons by definition. Yet those same weapons, when held by government officials, are considered “defensive.” I gave a hypothetical example of weaponless self-defense, and then added two conditions that made weaponless self-defense even more hazardous. Tim did not comment.

Tim continues:

In 2000, England had about 4,000 with-gun robberies while the US had 170,000 After allowing for six times as many people in the US, the rate is still seven times higher in the US. This hardly proves that the laws made the difference, but the evidence is not on your side.

To me that isn’t as important as the fact that England, according to the British crime survey, suffered 276,000 robberies in 2000, and the U.S. about 408,000. With six times England’s population, that makes the English rate four times the American rate. Tim evidently considers the higher rate of robberies involving firearms to be worse than an overall much higher rate of robberies period. I do not concur. That is apparently the disconnect between our two philosophies – as long as the perpetrator doesn’t have a gun it seems, the crime committed has less importance. I don’t want to be the victim of a robbery, period, and I think that government policies that “restrict” my chances of successfully defending myself against them are immoral.

Now, I suppose, we’ll start trading statistics again?

Tim concludes:

I also note that you did not comment on the Kleck quote I gave. Do you concede that the “overmotivated criminal” is a fallacy as Kleck argues?

The pertinent part of the Kleck quote was this:

Like noncriminals, however, criminals do many things that are casually or only weakly motivated.
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(I)t is not all impossible for crime prevention efforts to be achieved among the more weakly or temporarily motivated criminals who make up the large part of the active offender population.

Specifically as it comes to guns, Kleck is correct, but by disarming the citizenry and by making it legally risky to use weapons in self defense, it is safer for “weakly or temporarily motivated criminals” to commit crimes against other people. They don’t need a gun to be successful. Physical superiority, a knife, a steel bar, or even a broken bottle is all that is needed.

An here’s the pernicious part, what I believe is the unintended consequence of a philosophy that considers all weapons in the hands of non-government agents to be “offensive weapons,” one that does not recognize that citizens can carry a weapon with defensive intent: Those “weakly or temporarily motivated criminals” learn that violent crime is lucrative, easy, and low-risk, and with each new success they become emboldened to do it again. This draws others to do it as well, just as the lucrative illicit drug industry constantly attracts new “talent.” Easy money. Some percentage of those “weakly or temporarily motivated criminals” become professional or at least semi-professional at it, and are willing to carry the tools of the profession.

This is a long-term trend, and I believe the history of violent crime in England illustrates this. The rising level of violent crime in England as a result of the failure of the philosophy that “all weapons are offensive” forced the government to become ever more restrictive towards the general citizenry without affecting the ever rising levels of violent crime. In combination with other failed social policies, particularly social welfare and criminal justice reform, disarming the general public has resulted in a polity with the highest level of violent crime in the developed world.

Still unwilling to admit the error of the philosophy, the government continues its congnitive dissonance and “escalates the failure” by announcing a desire to end of “double-jeopardy” protections and trial by jury for some crimes. Another incremental step toward what would be, for all intents and purposes, a police state, not a free nation.

All of this justified, apparently, by a fear of firearms.

UPDATE, 5/2:

I made an error in this post, which Tim pointed out:

Oh, and you blew the comparison of robbery rates. You have compared the survey measured robbery rate in England with the police reported robbery rate in the US. The police reported number in England is 78,000 (it’s right next to the 276,000 figure you reported) that’s roughly the same rate as you get with 408,000 robberies in the US once you adjust for population.

He was quite correct. I was wrong. I have apologized and clarified my position in a later post.

Tim has a new post up, dedicated to proving me wrong after that long exchange. Too bad we seem to be arguing different topics, but… My response is (typically for me) really long, and the preview function in his comment section seems to have puked, so I’m responding here. Please go read Tim’s opening salvo first so you understand what I’m responding to.

Glad you responded, Tim. I thought for a second you’d abandoned the field!

Point 1: I stated, quite plainly:

Where have I said a gun is the ONLY way?

Please, point it out.

I’ve said that, for those so willing it’s the BEST TOOL FOR THE JOB. But as Mr. Lindsay demonstrates, it’s hardly the “only way.”

Now you’ve changed the assertion to that I state a WEAPON is the “only way” to defend yourself, even though I gave a hypothetical example of unarmed self-defense in that same thread:

Example: Someone confronts me and demands my wallet (with an implied threat of physical injury if I do not comply.) Instead of yielding up my wallet, I punch him in the mouth and knock him out. Doing so, I break my hand. I am injured, but I have not lost my wallet. I have successfully defended myself, even though I did not avoid injury. I have done something else – I have prevented a crime of violence (robbery edited from the original) through the legitimate use of force. My punching him in the mouth is not assault, it’s self-defense. If I am able to call the police and the mugger is apprehended, (hopefully before he recovers consciousness) I have aided in removing a violent criminal from the street (until they put him out on bail ten minutes after arraignment.) If I then testify against him and put him in jail, I’ve done a bit more effective job (unless he gets a sentence of probation.) Regardless, I’ve not only defended myself, I’ve defended society by resisting violent crime and attempting to remove a violent criminal from the general population.

Now, repeat the exercise above with the assailant holding an (illegal) knife, and me with only my hands and feet with which to defend myself.

Then add my wife and my two grandchildren to the equation.

I note you didn’t comment on that example.

Point 2: “If the law disarms attackers, then it can make self defence possible where it would have been impossible if the attacker was armed.” Nice of you to admit that last point. Big “if” there at the start, though. Because what you are saying here by implication is “Honest citizens should never use a weapon in self defense, and the government is honestly doing everything it can to disarm everybody so that you can successfully defend yourself in your unarmed state.” Well! That’s comforting. Good to know the government is looking out for its citizens. But it’s obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together that the law doesn’t disarm attackers. They choose to carry a weapon or not regardless of the law.

You’re damned right I focus on cases where the only way to defend yourself is with a weapon, because the UK government has seen fit to disarm the law-abiding. As the link you provided in the original thread stated,

One of the most important limitations on the use of weapons is of course that they cannot be carried or used to injure other people. (Emphasis added)

Apparently any other people, including someone who assaults you.

I did indeed assert that the laws against weapons have essentially no effect on the access to weapons by criminals. I didn’t provide evidence because I thought anyone reading would acknowledge that the English experience pretty much illustrated that, but no, you’ve whipped out some pretty charts to ostensibly prove otherwise. Well, I’m game.

Your first chart indicating violent crime rates shows a climb from about 2.2 million incidents in 1981 to about 4.2 million in 1995, then a reduction to about 2.5 million in 2000. According to this Home Office page in 2002/03 it’s back up to not quite 2.8 million. You’re certainly right about crime going up and down, but you’re looking at the short trend, not the long one, and you neglect to note that violent crime here in the States – where we don’t “enjoy” the kind of weapon control laws the UK does, also began trending down at the same time. One problem – the rates in England & Wales now exceed ours, and have for a while. Hell, they exceed most everybody’s.

The second graphic shows armed robberies involving firearms and you use it to state “Robberies with firearms are less frequent now than they were at the start of the 90s.” They are? The way I read that chart, they climbed dramatically from 1990 to ’95, dipped pretty significantly after 1995 (prior to Dunblane) and they minimized in 1998, but they’re right back up to where they were in 1990. I thought the handgun ban was supposed to make everyone safer? This Home Office report indicates that from 1991 through 1995 violent crime committed with firearms in England and Wales stayed fairly stable at about 13,000 per year. Then there was the ’96 handgun ban and things started to fluctuate, but the trend is still UP rather than DOWN. UP, in fact to a level of over 22,000 for 2002.

Aside from that, British weapon control laws started long before 1981. They actually started about 1920 (Bolshevism and all that) with The Firearms Act, 1920 that required registration of rifles and handguns and introduced the “good reason” restriction. “Self defense” at that time was an accepted “good reason.” It really got going in the middle of the century with the Prevention of Crime Act, 1953 which made it illegal to carry an “offensive weapon” without demonstrating a “need.” “Offensive weapons” included knives, pointed objects, and tear gas along with firearms. This is, apparently, where the government decided that “the most important limitations on the the use of weapons is of course that they cannot be carried or used to injure other people.”

Here’s a challenge, Tim. You work at a university and have access to stuff that’s not on-line. Go dig up the violent crime rate statistics for England & Wales from 1900 through 2000. Long ago I found statistics that showed the rate was low and stable up until shortly after passage of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1953. In 1958 the rate was a tiny 69/100,000, but it climbed strongly and steadily from there until by 1997 it was up to 647/100,000 – a more than 900% increase. According to this report the rate for 2002/03 was 1900/100,000. Now, I’m certain that changes in the way crimes are recorded has had an effect on those numbers, and while Gary Mauser’s graph shows an apparent step-change in those rates right about 1997, they just kept going up.

Perhaps you’re right, perhaps the fact that the government implemented a philosophy of

All weapons are offensive and weapons cause violent crime, therefore we must do everything in our power to disarm our populace in order to prevent violent crime!

isn’t responsible for the increase, but I’ve not seen any other explanation for it. But you know us “gullible gunners!” So simplisme.

What I have seen is that implementation of that policy has not made England and Wales safer. That polity has moved up rapidly to achieve the rank of #1 in violent crime in the developed world. Regardless of whether the laws passed as a result of that philosophy are responsible for the increase, both have proven useless in actually reducing violent crime. The philosophy has failed, yet it has been repeatedly tried, each time with more vigor, in a textbook example of cognitive dissonance.

I’ll repeat myself, since it seems necessary: This isn’t about guns. It isn’t about weapons. It’s about a philosophy that denies the absolute right to defend yourself, your family, and your property while giving that right lip-service. If you can defend as valid a system that tells people they have a right to self-defense but denies to them the means to exercise that right then we can’t have a productive discussion. We won’t be talking to each other. But I hope sincerely that you’ll continue this exchange, because other people need to see it. They need to see how you can answer the question,

And how is a woman to exercise her presumed inherent right to lethal force against a rapist if she’s denied any means with which to do so? What weapon is she left with? Foul language? Mean thoughts? Rapier wit?”

with

Restrictions on weapons might make self defence more difficult in some cases, but they can also make it easier in others.

Abstractions are always so much easier to deal with than hard realities.

I’ve got lots of questions to ask you Tim, and I’m really interested in your responses. Here’s an invitation: I have another blog that I started just for discussions like this, because comment sections are just too damned limited. Want to join me there? Would you rather just trade posts? Or would you rather stop now before I make your brain hurt in your defense of the indefensible? As I said, I’m game.

UPDATE, 4/5/04 10:30 AM MST: Tim has a new post up, but has yet to respond to this post in either my comments, his comments, or the body of his blog. It’s only been two days, though. I’ll give him a couple more…

UPDATE 5:00PM: You’ve GOT to read this! Aaaaaahhhggghh! And I can’t post on it yet! THAT gets archived!

UPDATE 4/6 11:00AM: Tim has responded in the comments of his post. I think he’s going to find that forum restrictive if this exchange goes on very long, but his choice. I’ll reply in a couple of days, probably after I have something to say about my question above.